dog attacks and kills sheep

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dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby funnybunny » 11 Feb 2009, 10:39

HI

For the past nine months, my friend and her Rotti cross German Shepherd, Max, have been walking daily. He's a wonderful dog once you get to know him, but initially he is very nervous and you never know when we meet new people if he will be friendly or aggressive. He is treated fairly laxly at home, more like a child than a dog. He is three years old and recently seems to be changing shape and 'beefing out'.
We live in rural Scotland with lots of sheep and cows in the surrounding fields. Max is always interested in the animals and to be fair, the cows often tramp across the field to say hello to him. However, last Saturday we had a disasterous walk. Max galloped across a large empty field to get to a field of sheep that were sheltering in the hedges from the snow. Once in chase mode he stopped listening to anyone or anything. He systematically took down four sheep and one died later of her wounds. At one point we had four people trying to stop him and when we did corner him he wasn't aggressive at all. Luckily the farmer was very, very understanding and doesn't want Max put down but can this dog/walkers now be rehabilitated?
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby LeviBevi » 11 Feb 2009, 11:29

Oh my!! :reallysurprised:
You poor, poor thing! It must have been very traumatic for you!
You have my deepest sympathy - there is nothing worse than when your dog kills something!
(unless it's meant to - I own working JRT's so they are allowed to kill things but only when I say)

Do not despair - I am sure that you will get gallons of great advice from here!

The first thing that you must do is not let him off the lead until you get this fixed - you can not allow him to do a repeat performance. The next farmer may not be so understanding and they do have the law on their side if they shoot your dog!

Work on your recall and really get it down - this will help in the long run
Try to get to the point when you can recall your dog from eating dinner and he will leave the food and come.

An old terrier-man way is to take your dog into a field of sheep (on lead) and stay there for a few hours so the dog gets used to the way sheep move and act. The idea being that the sheep no longer become something exciting but something rather mundane.

My current rescue - did something similar when we first had him except being a terrier he went in underneath and tried to ripp the sheeps guts out - but we worked on it and now he is fine with sheep - so do not despair it is fix able.
Take heart :love:

Please can you tell me abit more about the build up to the attack

thanks
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby funnybunny » 11 Feb 2009, 12:43

Thank you so much for the reassurance. I'm trying to get Max's owner to watch the Dog Whisperer as I don't think she acts like a pack leader, yet.

The attack
We were at the end of our walk. We have lots of snow in Aberdeenshire just now so it was shorter than normal but still about 2.5 miles. Max was off the lead and was smooching around the edges of a field. We were three neighbours walking together and chatting.
As we approached the last field my friend asked if we could see any sheep in the further field, as she is a farmer's wife and well aware of the attention Max pays to sheep and the consequences of an attack. Because they were all sheltering from the snow we couldn't see them, so Max was left to roam. Half way up the field my other neighbour spotted a sheep and we realised where they were. The dog's owner called him back but he ignored her, he was already in chase mode. He has done this before but it has been with rabbits and deer and we try and watch for the change of body posture. If we can call him early enough he returns. This time though he had obviously spotted the sheep before us and was off.
The three of us took off over the field, through a burn and out into the next field where he had already taken down one sheep and seemed to be dragging it about. He paid no attention to our calling him or whistling. He then stopped and rounded up the other sheep, running beside them and waiting for one to break away from the herd. Then he attacked that one. The sheep that died looked like he had attacked it's under side and luckily for us none of the sheep were in lamb. He repeated this performance and when the fourth sheep happended to run closer to where Max's owner was before he took it down, she distracted him and put his lead back on. I'd have to say he didn't look remorseful, his tail and ears were up.

Max's owner's initial reaction was to have Max put down but when she phoned the farmer, the final decision was left with him. He said as long as it wouldn't happen again he didn't want Max put down.

Since then we have kept him on the lead and we're not taking any chances. The owner also bought a muzzle for him which he wears.

I hope this is useful and if you have any further suggestions we are all ears.

Thanks again
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 11 Feb 2009, 13:57

Unfortunately once dogs have killed sheep are very likely to do so again. It's not agression but just their nature to do so. In some dogs that instinct is just a bit stonrger than in others.

You friend will have to work on general obedience exercises (recall, heel, drop on command) away from any sheep and then later try to do the same at the side of or in the field with the sheep. The fact is that the dog has a history of chasing deer and rabbits (probably already killed or wounded some of those as well), so already had more or less formed a habit in chasing and now has been very successful with the sheep and the reward that he gets from that experience will outdo any rewards you can give him. I seriously doubt it that you will be able to let him off the lead safely near sheep ever again.....

I work my dogs with sheep and can tell you that every dog will always be very interested in a panicky sheep. No matter how many times you will have walked your dogs in between sheep, a sheep in such state of mind is the best thing ever for a dog to chase.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Nicola » 11 Feb 2009, 14:03

I agree with Hetty.

I had a Springer Spaniel (Barney) many years ago that pitched into a sheep that was already very sick. Hetty is correct that for some reason sheep seem overly attractive to nearly all dogs.

Luckily my Boyfriend at the time was a shepherd and I was able to take Barney into the sheds during lambing time.

The overly protective Ewes with their lambs taught Barney the error of his ways, and he didnt attempt this again, but this was just a case of us being in the right place at the right time.

IMO the dog that you refer to must never be allowed to run loose where livestock or game might be ever again.

Sorry.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 11 Feb 2009, 14:26

I know some people advice to let dogs in with ewes with lambs, but ewes in such state of mind can kill or seriously damage dogs and that is also not the way you want it to end up either.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Nicola » 11 Feb 2009, 14:37

I know Hetty, I was 19 and a bit stupid. Like I said, was a long time ago..........................
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Sonia » 11 Feb 2009, 15:57

I knew a man whose German Pointer chased and killed a sheep. He took the dog to a gundog trainer who put him in a field of sheep and when the dog chased, the dog was caught and hit with a hose pipe. I am sure you are all cringing now :( However, at a later date I was walking with this man and dog in Wales with sheep everywhere and he let the dog off the lead, (I wouldn't let mine off!) and the dog completely ignored the sheep, even the ones that got up suddenly out of bracken. Better some punishment than death in my opinion.

I have taken my three dogs to a "sheep safe" course where they have had sheep run passed them and have ignored them, however, I still would be wary if we came across sheep and would always have them on the lead. As lovely as sheep are, the world for dog owners would be a better place without them :goofysmile:
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby LeviBevi » 11 Feb 2009, 21:13

Thanks for the additional information.

The first thing that I would say is that you can not learn to be 'pack leader' from watching a TV programme - Ceasar is interesting to watch and he is very good at what he does - but he is very very experienced and your friend is not him. If she/he is nervous about the dog then I would suggest professional help

Now the thing is that the owners confidence will have taken a knock from this incident so they will have to work at building the relationship back up.
Personnally I would suggest to you that you take your time and basically you are starting from the beginning again with the dog and rebuilding your relationship. It is going to be hard to get that incident out of your mind - but you must try.

The idea of letting an older ewe who is lambing sort out your problem for you may be very appealing but it is not something that can be undertaken by a novice. And just because someone says that they can do it does not mean that they can. This is an olde way - but again I personnally would be more inclined to teach a good 'watch' command and then take the dog into the shed. Let him sit and watch not paying any attention to the sheep. As he must not even look at sheep. This is a long road and you would have to work hard at it.

At the end of the day - really all you want is a perfect recall under any circumstances.
I can completely understand how hard it can be - after all I own teenage boy JRT's, whose prey drive is thorough the roof and were bred to do nothing but chase and kill.
But you can achieve it with consistency and patience
Go back to the basics and start again - what you want to initially aim at is in the house a recall even whilst he is eating.
Then into the garden - someone playing intently and a recall
Another really strong command for the dog would be 'leave' - we have a special one for certain occasions - 'Stop'
It is like to instant down at distance but I don;t care if the dog drops to the floor what I care about is that he stops dead and does not move! - taught by breaking the command down into its smaller components and then, putting it all together.

I certainly do NOT recommend hitting a dog under any circumstances.
For every one rule you knock in ,you can knock another 10 out.
You want him to respect you not be afraid of you.

The other point I would make is that from the dogs point of view
He started the hunt and you guys all run to his aid.
- it might have been better if you had all run in the opposite direction- calling and acting like loonys
but this is something that only you can make a call about - only you know your dog and what buttons he have.
Another idea is to play hide and seek wiht him - to get him to engage with you more on the walk. We tend to be quite random on our walks so our dogs have learnt that they have to stay fairly close and to keep an eye on us as we might vanish at any moment.

So I hope that I have given you some ideas and food for thought.
Keep your chin up
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby LeviBevi » 11 Feb 2009, 21:19

opps sorry back again

One last thought - dogs are not humans they do not have remorse
After all what had he done wrong - nothing
he is a dog what were you expecting him to do?

The only thing that he did wrong - was to chase and kill prey wiht out the permission of the pack leader.
So the point is that it is the owners fault that his recall command is not strong enough and that the bond there is not as good as it could be as he did not respect enough to take the command seriously enough

Sorry :oops:
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Sonia » 11 Feb 2009, 21:48

Levibevi,

I would never hit my own dog and agree with you wholeheartedly about it bringing more trouble and the dog fearing the owner, however, this dog was punished by someone he was not emotionally involved with and his bond with his owner was as great as ever.

I know we all wish to have an amazing recall, but I don't think most dog owners have that when the pull to chase is so strong. Ideally we should and must aim for that and I am sure we all try very hard. I would like to put a smiley face there, but it doesn't seem quite the place when someone has had the worry of their dog chasing and killing a sheep. I do feel for her and "but there for the grace of god go I......".

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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby LeviBevi » 12 Feb 2009, 12:33

hi

I appreciate what you are saying - but hitting any dog by anyone still is wrong in my eyes. just my personal view.
I have worked Terriers all my life and never once have had to hit a dog to get it to do what I wanted.

As for the recall - Terriers are notorious for not coming back especially when in prey mode - so I do not allow mine off until I have a really good recall.
Yes when they are young (especially teenagers) they may go off for a bit but I would never work them in a field with livestock until I knew for sure that I could stop the dog before it got to the animals.

That is the responsibility we as dog owners take on when we get the animal and there is no shirking from it
If you can not recall you dog 99.9% of the time under any circumstances - then do not take it near farm land or put it on the lead and keep it there!
Because believe me farmers take no joy in having to shoot a dog or lose livestock

Again just my point of view
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 12 Feb 2009, 13:16

LeviBevi wrote:hi
If you can not recall you dog 99.9% of the time under any circumstances - then do not take it near farm land or put it on the lead and keep it there!


Hi LeviBevi,

You are so right. People who do not have control over their animals are just gambling a bit with the safety of other animals, e.g. sheep, but also rabbits, deer etc. We as dog owners should act responsibly and make sure our dogs are not a nuisance to anyone.

What I don't understand is that the owner was aware of this habit of the dog (chasing, as he has done so in the past) and they knew there could be sheep about and they still left the dog off the lead. This dog could have lost his life over a decision of the owner not to put him on the lead.

I hope she will take up training classes or get a behaviourist to help with this problem and keep the dog on the lead. The sheep that were not killed but chased are severely traumatised and it will take the shepherd/farmer a long time before they won't panick anymore when they see other dogs.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Sonia » 12 Feb 2009, 16:10

I would never take my dog off lead if I thought there were sheep about, even though he has been on a sheep safe course and taught the recall and all the other things we did to have a dog focus on us and also the opportunity to have him in a field of sheep with a sheep dog driving the sheep past our dogs.

The poor unfortunate girl who wrote earlier, did check the field for sheep and it was very unfortunate ones were hidden, I am sure she would have kept her dog on the lead otherwise.

I have an acquaintance who had two dogs who disappeared for a few moments when they were in Wales and where found with a sheep pinned up against barbed wire, the one had definitely attacked the sheep, the younger one perhaps not; they were immediately taken to a vet and destroyed. I would never do that and would always try to find away to train the dog not to chase, whatever that might involve, rather than a life be snuffed out for doing something that is "natural" in the dog. If nothing could be done and the dog had blood lust then sadly it would have to be destroyed, but at least give a dog a chance.

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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 12 Feb 2009, 16:49

Unfortuantely a farmer that sees a strange dog with his sheep (in the UK) has the right to shoot it.

Personally I do not see the difference in chasing rabbits or deer or sheep. If you have a dog that chases wildlife, it should not be off the lead.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Sonia » 12 Feb 2009, 16:59

I agree absolutely. I just empathised with how the owner must have been feeling.

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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby LeviBevi » 13 Feb 2009, 12:01

hi

I completely agree - there is nothing worse than when your dog kills something it should not.
But there is always hope - luckily this farmer was very understanding so the dog has a second chance
And there is always light at the end of the tunnel

I have taken dogs that were on death row because of their previous behaviour and have managed to turn them around into wonderful companions so there is always heart to be had.
I also have working terriers who get to kill vermin on a regular basis (sorry Hetty :oops: )- after all this is what they were bred by us to do - but I still had to work hard initially to get them to only kill what I allow, and to stop when I say to.

Dogs always amaze me with their ability to learn new things - lets all hope that with the right commitment and training skills this dog can 'mend' its ways and become excellent around livestock.

wish you all the best with your continuing training :wave:
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Lez Graham » 13 Feb 2009, 22:55

I would have replied earlier but I'm been out of action due to problems with my hub so am just catching up with posts now.

I rummaged around the internet and found this on a neighbourhood watch site which sums up the various acts in relation to dogs and livestock...

Dogs & Livestock
The chasing and killing or worrying of livestock, mainly sheep, is one of the most savage acts a dog owner can be responsible for. Could your dog, gentle and loyal, be capable of such cruel and vicious attacks? Yes. When left unsupervised, ALL dogs, regardless of size, breed or temperament, are a danger to livestock. It is part of a dog's instinct to chase and kill what is to them a potential meal.
Factors leading dogs to worry livestock include boredom, lack of socialisation or attention seeking.
Under the Dogs (NI) Order 1983, as amended by the Dangerous Dogs (NI) Order 1991 it is an offence for a person to be the keeper of a dog which attacks livestock.
Under the Dogs (NI) Order 1983 as amended by the Dangerous Dogs (NI) Order 1991 it is against the law for dogs to chase or attack livestock.
What happens to the dog that has sheep-worried?

The law states:
1) Where a dog has attacked or killed livestock the court may make an order directing the dog to be destroyed.
2) Where it appears to a court that a dog has chased livestock in such a way as might reasonably have been expected to cause injury or suffering to the livestock or to result in financial loss to the owner of livestock the court may:
a) make an order directing the dog to be destroyed; or
b) make an order directing the dog to be kept confined in a building, shed or other enclosure from which it cannot escape.

With few exceptions, the law allows farmers to shoot dogs that are threatening livestock. If a dog worries livestock, the dog's owner or person responsible for it at the time, is guilty of an offence under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act of 1953, and may be sued for compensation by the farmer.


Max's owner's initial reaction was to have Max put down but when she phoned the farmer, the final decision was left with him. He said as long as it wouldn't happen again he didn't want Max put down. Since then we have kept him on the lead and we're not taking any chances. The owner also bought a muzzle for him which he wears.
I think that Max's owner is being responsible about buying him a muzzle and making him wear it. I really feel it for them, however, the dog broke the law and the owner is responsible for it... I don't think that this dog should ever be allowed off lead again. The prey drive has been fired up and has gone from chasing rabbits and deer to bringing down 4 sheep and killing one of them. What will be next ?


What I don't understand is that the owner was aware of this habit of the dog (chasing, as he has done so in the past) and they knew there could be sheep about and they still left the dog off the lead. This dog could have lost his life over a decision of the owner not to put him on the lead. Personally I do not see the difference in chasing rabbits or deer or sheep. If you have a dog that chases wildlife, it should not be off the lead.
I totally agree Hetty hence my comments above

I have an acquaintance who had two dogs who disappeared for a few moments when they were in Wales and where found with a sheep pinned up against barbed wire, the one had definitely attacked the sheep, the younger one perhaps not; they were immediately taken to a vet and destroyed.
Unfortunately Sonia if I'd found myself in the same situation I would have done the same
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby funnybunny » 14 Feb 2009, 01:20

yep
I would have to agree with everything that is being said. In hindsight we should have linked the chasing of rabbits and deer to the sheep but unfortunately we didn't at the time. As has been pointed out, Max was just doing what he does and it was down to us to control him.

As this dog isn't mine I feel I can't keep on at my friend, so can anyone recommend a trainer/behavourist in the Aberdeen area? I assume this needs specialist training and regular classes wont be enough?

Many thanks for all your input, it smarts but is greatly appreciated.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Lez Graham » 14 Feb 2009, 20:07

funnybunny wrote:As this dog isn't mine I feel I can't keep on at my friend, so can anyone recommend a trainer/behavourist in the Aberdeen area? I assume this needs specialist training and regular classes wont be enough?


It's hard when it's friends isn't it knowing when to add your pennies worth and when to back off... I don't envy your position.
You're right that a behaviourist would be better or a very skilled dog trainer in a one to one situation rather than classes.

I know nothing about these two other than they're both members of respected organisations and based in Scotland (although Andrew is in southern scotland he may be able to recommend someone further north for you).
Wish your friend all the very best
Lez

Andrew Bernard ACFBA
Southern Scotland
Tel: 0141 887 1666

Anna Patfield
01738 812319
07906 173993
http://www.pawsability.co.uk/Aboutus.htm
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby nickmcmechan » 15 Feb 2009, 09:46

four options imo:

1. kepp it on a lead
2. work on excellent recall & stop (in a down)
3. consult a professional - i know one very well espected professional in scotland that helped a friend with a malamoir. he put it in a field with an agressive ram and an electric collar...all set up and ready to go...they just looked at each other and walked away...then again how may dogs have been run over but still run across the road?
4. keep it on a lead
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Wire Vizsla lad » 15 Feb 2009, 12:34

Hetty wrote:Unfortuantely a farmer that sees a strange dog with his sheep (in the UK) has the right to shoot it.

Personally I do not see the difference in chasing rabbits or deer or sheep. If you have a dog that chases wildlife, it should not be off the lead.



Just a question Hetty are sheepdogs when working with a farmer not hunting as a pack of wolfs would do? ..its a natural thing for a sheep dog to do this and the farmer homes in on this to control his dog... and also a natural thing for any dog to hunt wildlife etc...Therefore the farmer who shots any dog he sees needs to stop and think before he lets his trigger finger do the talking .....the dog might be chasing a Kong that has been thrown for him..

My fathers dog was shot by a so called farmer many years ago about (20yrs)I remeber it very well, and he was no where near any sheep. He was sniffing around a hedge row when the moron fired his shotgun, the dog was hit in the rear quarter with pellets and suffered the rest of his life with these pellets embedded in his body the vet could not get them all out, if you stroked him in a certain place he would yelp in pain. I took him to the vets with my dad he was bleeding badly and in a lot of pain.
We spoke to the police about this to try and get him prosicuted and the guy was questioned. His defence was that a dog had been seen days earlier running in the field around his sheep so he thought my dads dog was the same one. Dads dog was an old mongral who was around 10 yrs old who could not run very far never mind chase sheep, he would not !and never did, hurt a fly ...a real softy. Also my dad who was not in the best of health himself at the time was badly shock up, (he passed away 10yrs ago)

This so called farmer, who was more of a freeholder renting the land before it was demolished for a new housing estate had a dozen sheep on one large field in a very built up area, (houses all around the property)He fired this shotgun within close view of a main road totally unconcerned about passing traffic. Because of this so called law re shooting dogs he got away with it. I enjoyed watching his farm get demolished a couple of years later and watching this thug of a so called farmer moved on .

I dont agree with people letting dogs run wild they need to be in control, but i certainly dont agree that a farmer has the right to let loss a weapon on someones pet dog. It seems that we have banned in this country fox hunting and other types of hunting but farmers can still keep shotguns and shoot dogs. Let the court deceide if a dog should be distroyed and the owner made to pay for any damage that his dog has done, after all the farmer might shoot the wrong dog! as was the case with my old dad..



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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Richard » 16 Feb 2009, 01:43

hmmm difficult and emotive i think.....

although im a town liver , i have farmer clients and know how hard they take it when they loose stock

a farmer would never use their right to shoot a dog unless they felt it justified, and as has been shown in this thread they are on the whole decent folk and true animal lovers.

the right to destroy an animal without the intervention of a court of law till afterwards wasn't given lightly and hasn't to my knowledge ever been found to be excessive.

it is there for a very sensible reason, it is a very real problem and farmers have to be able to protect their livelihoods.

ive been out with farmer in total state loading a dozen or more carcasses onto a trailer, its not pleasent or fair on them when it happens.

your experiance i think was the exception to the norm.

i always used to love farm visits rushing home to taste fresh laid eggs or home prepared beef.that was a more sobbering reality of farm life.

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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 16 Feb 2009, 10:54

Hi Steve,

I do not agree with this law that a farmer can shoot dogs, but this law is applied in your country, where you can vote and influence laws and legislation.

In Holland farmers are not allowed to hunt animals, shoot dogs etc, but having seen upclose what can happen if people just let their dogs in your field with sheep (yes yes....they think it is nice for their dog to do what the collies do, as it all looks so easy and why would that mean the shepherd has invested a lot of time in training his dog).....it is not a pretty sight! Also it looks very different if a dogs runs in a field to pick up his kong or if he wants to chase sheep. But I am sure some farmers are so worried about dogs chasing their lifestock, due to past experiences that they are a bit triggerhappy. But this is your country and your laws......

Every dog has this instinct to chase sheep. Also collies, and there are plenty of collies that should not even come close to sheep as it is just down right dangerous and unfair to the sheep as well as the fact that there are plenty of collies that are not even interested in the sheep. I love herding with my dogs and feel strongly that the sheep should be treated fairly when training dogs to herd them. A good collie does not stress the sheep, stays well enough away from them but just moves them steadily from one place to the other. Collies also need a lot of training before they are good sheepdogs and they have been bred generations and generations on bite inhibition and just rounding sheep up and not killing them. A good sheepdog trainer will make sure that both dog and sheep are not harmed in any way while training the dog.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Wire Vizsla lad » 16 Feb 2009, 11:11

I agree Richard
That the vast majority would ‘I hope’ view each situation accordingly and it would be the last thing that they did (fire a gun) and I am sure that it is very upsetting when any farmer sees sights like you have described; I think even I would fire the gun in those circumstances, if I was witnessing the event before my eyes.

My dad’s dog was shot by a man who thought he was a Farmer, when in reality he was renting a run down farm building, And because of development this farm building, which was very old (well over 200 yrs old) found its self in the middle of a community.
The farm had been in the possession of an old lady for many years, she had simply rented out the attached stables to locals needing somewhere to keep horses.
This fellow came along after the old lady died and rented the farm from the landowner along with its one remaining field and put a few sheep on it. He was in no way a Farmer, as we understand what farmers are; he was playing at it (almost like the good life)
So for many, many years my old dad had walked the same route with his dog past the field down the lane and back home no more than a mile round trip. Until this one day when 'Homer Simpson in dungarees’ shot his dog. He could have hit my dad or any passing kids because the area was close to a by pass and new housing. I do believe that if it happened today he would be prosecuted because of all the gun laws we now have but back then like I said 20yrs or so ago he hid behind the Framer / gun rule. I cant tell you how much this upset my dad at the time and to be honest most of the community that we lived in came out and had a real go at this fellow for quite some time whenever he was out and about. Of course he did not give a dam, he was that type of guy so it was quite pleasing when he eventually was asked to vacate the farm (I wont go into details but he was inspected more than once for the way he kept his livestock)
So as you say it has effected how I view farmers shooting dogs.
I don’t see how it is illegal / cruel to hunt a Fox, that attacks chickens and other livestock, but fine for a Framer to shoot an animal that they have no idea if it is the guilty party.


Steve
Last edited by Wire Vizsla lad on 17 Feb 2009, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 16 Feb 2009, 11:30

By the sounds of it Steve, that man was a lunatic and your father and his dog were his victims. Your dad and your family must be severely traumatised by such an event. That is a very sad and upsetting story and a good reason why people should not be allowed to carry guns/knives etc around. It is awful the man was not prosecuted for it. By the sounds of it he had some serious issues.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Hetty » 16 Feb 2009, 11:33

Wire Vizsla lad wrote: I don’t see how it is illegal / cruel to hunt a Fox, that attacks chickens and other livestock, but fine for a Framer to shot an animal that they have no idea if it is the guilty party.
Steve



I totally agree there....it is all the same wrong unethical behaviour to me.
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Wire Vizsla lad » 16 Feb 2009, 11:47

Hetty wrote:By the sounds of it Steve, that man was a lunatic and your father and his dog were his victims. Your dad and your family must be severely traumatised by such an event. That is a very sad and upsetting story and a good reason why people should not be allowed to carry guns/knives etc around. It is awful the man was not prosecuted for it. By the sounds of it he had some serious issues.



Thank you Hetty,

He was a horrid chap; totally unconcerned as to any actions he carried out. The R.S.P.C.A where not happy with him over many things he did in the few years he was at the farm, and eventually he was removed. The farm was demolished about 12 yrs ago and the whole area has now been developed into new housing, a very nice 'large' country park and new woodland has been planted very close by, which is totally safe for everyone to use. my old dad would have loved it.

steve :grommit:
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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby Marion » 17 Feb 2009, 09:58

An interesting and emotive debate...

Some think that the farmers should not have the right to shoot a dog that has destroyed his livestock/sheep and others think he should.

If the farmer does not shoot the dog ...takes the matter further and the dog ends up destroyed by order of a court...what is the difference????

In my lifetime I have never heard of a farmer that shot a dog for no good reason in fact I have only once known of the opposite happening and this was with two German Shepherds that had escaped and ran into a field of sheep destroying 18 of them. I was with others trying to stop the slaughter but these dogs had turned from companion animals into wild beasts in full prey drive and nothing was going to stop them except the farmer’s gun. The dogs were killed cleanly.

I say that a farmer should have the power to shoot any dog that is attacking farm livestock for the simple reason that this law alone acts as a deterrent. If a dog owner knows that the farmer has the authority to shoot their dog should it begin to chase the sheep then they will think twice about letting it off lead.

As obedient as my dogs are even I will not take any chances if I am passing by a field of sheep. Even the most well behaved of dogs can flip into prey drive unexpectedly. Besides which it does the dogs no harm to be on lead and under control when out on a walk. I will randomly call one of the dogs to me and clip them on lead to walk to heel for a short while before releasing that dog then calling in another. It conveys the message that I am in control even when they are running free and playing games. As much as my dogs mean to me...should any one of them attack a sheep and be subsequently shot by a farmer...I would have failed the dog and not the farmers gun :!:

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Re: dog attacks and kills sheep

Postby debbie » 17 Feb 2009, 10:16

Very good points
What a horrible thing - i agree with Hetty he must have been a lunatic!!!
And the reason wolves are no longer here ..............yet in Scotland they have to cull thousands of deer to keep the population down!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I agree with your comment
I don’t see how it is illegal / cruel to hunt a Fox, that attacks chickens and other livestock, but fine for a Framer to shot an animal that they have no idea if it is the guilty party.


Hetty -
where you can vote and influence laws and legislation.

hmmmmmmm politics now thats a different debate !!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Now this is the law of the jungle, as old and as true as the sky,
And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree trunk, the law runneth forward and back;
For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack.
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