A dislike for unneutered male dogs....advice please.

[ladybug]

On a few occasions recently Dylan has met some dogs when on a walk and whereas he ususaly says hello or plays quite happily, he has 'had a go' at the other male dog....not as in fighting, but more sort of a bit of barking and jumping forwards at the other dog. And when I asked the owner if their dog was neutered they have said no......so it seems a bit of a theme that he doesnt like unneutered male dogs.

There is also an unneutered male lab at our agility class - he is in the more advanced class who are up the opposite end of the arena, and last week he became fixated on him, and after doing the weave poles took himself off up the other end of the arena at a run to react in a similar way as I have described above. After he had got to the lab he did listen to my recall tho.

But the question is, Dylan is neutered, so why does he react in such a way to unneutered males? Is it him playing the 'hard man' and asserting himself over the other dog? Is there anything I can do about the behaviour? I mean its not a real problem...but would like to know more about it and how to deal with it. I have actually been very surprised recently at the number of unneutered dogs trotting around the countryside to be honest - I sort of assumed most people nowadays would have their dogs neutered, especially with the amount of unwanted dogs around.

[Hieronymus]

Hi

I don't know why Dylan doesn't like them but you could try to use some really tasty treats which he never gets any other time, such as garlic chicken or liver and build an association between the really good treat and the other dog. When he becomes fixated, get his attention back, feed him the treats. Over time, when he sees one of these dogs he doesn't like, he'll start to look at you for the treat. When he gets to this stage, start to ask for a sit and then give him the treat.

John

[janz]

Yeah, sounds good, the way you normally do things ladybug! He's at an age now...our training club women call them the 'lager louts', so it could be anothr phase to get him through to get the result at the other side!

[claire]

My boy happily trots round the countryside with his bits intact he loves neutered males (unless they try to put their heads over his shoulder) its just unneutered ones hes not keen on at close quarters but he wouldnt set out to approach them with intent he prefers to tell them how tough he is as opposed to demonstrate it.

[ladybug]

Janz - yes thats a very interesting point actually! The lady who runs my agility said he may be going through a bit of a 'yob' phase!! Hopefully once he passes his 'teenage' years he will settle down bless him!

[cracar]

I don't spay or neuter any of my pets. I did a bit of research into my desicion rather than just taking my vets word for it and the results would surprise you. Also, most of the 'problem' dogs we encounter at our training club are the spayed and neutered pets. Without the proper surges of hormones running around their bodies it seems our canine friends get a little insecure and nervous. I have never had an insecure dog, be it male or female, as I let them mature slowly as nature intended. I do worry about certain risks with not having them 'done' but my one girl that contracted mammary tumours(at 13) died of a stroke and my boy has recently been diagnosed with testicular cancer at 10 but considering he is in the latter stages of CDRM, I don't think it's going to be the cancer that takes him either. I did get one bitch spayed many years ago and had to live with an incontinent dog for the rest of her life, so that has a major effect on how I feel about the pros and cons of spaying and neutering.
Totally off topic but I was a bit surpised at how you assumed that spaying and neutering was best.

[LisaBC]

I have never had an insecure dog, be it male or female, as I let them mature slowly as nature intended.

Sorry but I disagree! I have also never until poppy had one but she very insecure but if spaying causes this then why is she? as she is not spayed! Breeding has a lot to do with insecure, nervous dogs which are breed from unspeyed insecure, nervous dogs.
I do think there is for's and against neutering but I dont think its quiet as simple as insecure v maturing.

[ladybug]

cracar - I think neutering is best from a number of angles.....it is, in my humble opinion, part of being a responsible dog owner....if you are not planning on breeding from the dog, why keep it entire when there are already so many unwanted dogs in the world. I know it is a big op for bithces, but for male dogs it is a minor procedure. I said nothing in my post about the behavioural side of neutering....I was simply asking if anyone knew why my neutered rescue dog might have a dislike for un=neutered male dogs.

And did the vet confirm to you that the incontinence was a direct result of the spaying?

[Hetty]

Incontinence can occur after spaying and are one of the things people have to keep in mind when they are considering this op. But it can easily be controlled with medication, so you do not have to have a dog that is incontinent. Incontinence after spaying does not happen a lot but definitely in a small percentage of dogs. Often these dogs are also docked and that can have something to do with it as well.

I do not agree with early spaying/castrating as even though it is called a routine operation in this country. In general dogs and bitches are done far too young before they had a chance to develop properly. Early spaying and neutering is not good as it affects the growth plates and development of the dog. If people decide to do it they should wait until the dog has matured (which is over a year) unless the dog has serious behavioural issues that might be resolved by neutering (but most of the time serious behavioural issues are more down to the owner than to hormones).There is also an anaesthetic risk to consider as there are seemingly healthy dogs that die on the operating table. Is it ethical to put an animal in such risk while it is not necessary to have this op at such time? To be fair most people have it done because the vet tells them to, or because they do not like the mess when a bitch is in season or because they hope the dog will stop humping things/people/kids.

For bitches it is something to consider as they do suffer from pyometra/mammary tumours/cysts etc. And most bitches have to be done sooner or later when they are not used for breeding, or have been used in the past but not for the last couple of years. Male dogs do not need the operation as the problems they can get when not castrated are far easier to diagnose (can be done by the owner themselves) if something goes wrong and even if something occurs then there is plenty of time to act upon it, while with a bitch it's harder to notice for the owner something is wrong and there is also a short time space in which the vet can still treat the animal with a 100% success rate, after that time space the success rate goes down rather quickly..... Early spaying and neutering is not good as it affects the growth plates and development of the dog. If people decide to do have their dog/bitch done they should wait until the dog has matured (which is over a year) unless the dog has serious behavioural issues that might be resolved by neutering (but most of the time serious behavioural issues are more down to the owner than to hormones).

I do not agree with your statement that if you are a responsible owner you have to castrate or spay your dog/bitch. A responsible owner has control over their dog. If you have control then it doesn't matter if your dog is neutered or not. One of my boys is entire and up to 2 weeks ago so was one of my girls (I've got 5 dogs, the rest are done). I've never noticed much difference in my dogs with a bitch in season around. They know it is not allowed to mess about so they won't do it. When I am around the dogs are always together, when I am away the bitch in season and the entire male dog are separated.

All my girls have been 4 years or older when done and most of the time the decision to have them done was due to either health or problems with their hormones, which would influence their work (in my dogs it were phantom pregnancies, cysts, feeling tired after being in season for a long time etc.). My older boy dog has been castrated when he was 3 yrs old as I got his hip scoring result back and he had a score of 16:17. So definitely not a dog to breed from. Saying so I've never bred (neither on purpose nor accidentally) from my own dogs, and do not think I'll ever do so, but maybe we will use Koda as a stud dog when he is older (he is 2 now) as he is such a super working dog, but his hips have not been done yet.

I feel that whether or not you have your animal done is a personal choice. In some cases it is even not advisable to have them done. Some male dogs with certain issues can be helped with a castration for other dogs it will make it all worse, as after castration they will smell like a bitch and other male dogs will be showing more interest in them, which makes the castrated dog react as the entire male dogs might approach him in a different way than they would have done if he would not have been castrated. An entire dog will approach a bitch or a castrated male dog in quite a 'dominant' way, tail up, high on the legs, he wants to show power to impress. Of course your dog won't like it (most bitches on the other hand love this macho stuff) as he is a boy himself and knows it, but he will have to learn to deal with it. Just do your watch exercises when you approach another dog. If he responds to a male dog then take him out of that situation immediately and do not accept his silliness.

[LisaBC]

Ok so after reading all that, I still cant decide whether it would be better to have my 2 year old spayed
It would be easier for me if she was, as I have an entire male and there is no way I want pups from her but will it make her nervousness even worse? or is it likely to help reduce her aggression to other bitches?
I dont know what to do for the best
I certainly wouldnt have her done if I think it has any chance of making her worse, if thats possible!

[Nicola]

I cant see how having her spayed would help tbh Lisa - maybe make her even more nervous around the vets?

All the dogs that I have ever had from Pups have not been spayed or nuetered, and like Hetty, I have previously kept entire dogs and unspayed bitches together with no problems

I agree that being responsible is about controlling and training, In fact Carl is probably the most strong-willed dog I have ever owned and he is neutered, and one of the most biddable dogs I have owned was an entire Wiemeraner who I had at the same time as an unspayed bitch.

The dogs I have now are all done, only because they are all rescues or rehomes and therefore done before I got them

[cracar]

cracar - I think neutering is best from a number of angles.....it is, in my humble opinion, part of being a responsible dog owner....if you are not planning on breeding from the dog, why keep it entire when there are already so many unwanted dogs in the world. I know it is a big op for bithces, but for male dogs it is a minor procedure. I said nothing in my post about the behavioural side of neutering....I was simply asking if anyone knew why my neutered rescue dog might have a dislike for un=neutered male dogs.

And did the vet confirm to you that the incontinence was a direct result of the spaying?

Yes, the vet did confirm that this was a side-effect of the op and I was told before hand that this could be the case. I tried her on the medication which didn't work for her and I also tried some holistic methods but to no avail. She was also re-admitted and scaned to see if there was any injury to the bladder from the surgery too. You asked why your dog has a dislike for neutered dogs and I think this is a behavioural aspect of being a neutered dog. Like Hetty says in her post, neutered dogs put out different phermones which are misread by other dogs which is obviously p*ssing off your boy. How is this not to do with him being neutered? And I don't understand where you think that if you are not going to breed, you should automatically neuter? Should I tell my aunt to get a hysterectomy because she doesn't want kids? If the op was so necessary, why are humans not treated the same way? Why don't adults get the ops as soon as their families are complete? Because it is dangerous to your health,that's why! And why are dogs that are entire anything to do with the unwanted dogs of this world? My entire dogs don't have litters, ever, unless planned. All it takes is a bit of planning and a crate. My dog is no different with anything when the girls are in season and my girls still get walked off-lead as they are trained.(I do take them to a very rural forrest so as to not bother anyone elses dogs rather than walk them in town).

Nicola
I was stating my opinion on what is, in my opinion, a major factor in that our training class is full of un-ruly dogs which on the advice of the vets, have been neutered and spayed far too early. I don't think this is the only reason not to do the op as if you look on-line there are a million Health resons not to do so either. I just got a bit caught up on the behavioural side. I have encountered entire nervous dogs too of course but I find they are much fewer and far between. This, of course, is only my opinion.

[memphis]

I think it's very difficult to state an unequivocal position on the rights and wrongs of neutering. I think I'm fairly typical of a conscientous dog owner. I love my dog and try to take all possible care in keeping him healthy, happy and safe. I sought advice from my vet and from the trainer at our obedience class and after a great deal of thought I had mine done. I don't regret my decision and I don't think people should be derided for doing what they think is best.

[Hetty]

Ok so after reading all that, I still cant decide whether it would be better to have my 2 year old spayed
It would be easier for me if she was, as I have an entire male and there is no way I want pups from her but will it make her nervousness even worse? or is it likely to help reduce her aggression to other bitches?
I dont know what to do for the best
I certainly wouldnt have her done if I think it has any chance of making her worse, if thats possible!

No one can tell you what is best. I've had Vi done by my boss when she was about 4 yrs old and basically her behaviour was a reason to do it. Vi is a rescue and came with aggression and also being very insecure around people. Having her spayed was the best decision I've made as she was mostly aggressive during or around the time she was in season. With her female hormones being taken out of the picture it made her a more stable person. Even though she can never be trusted a 100% with people and I always need to keep an eye on her (well to be fair: I need to keep and eye on the people that suddenly decide to approach her. Vi doesn't really like people and because she acts like she is not there, people seem to be very attracted to her, while there are 4 other dogs next to her that want to be stroked and wag their tails off their bum and do tricks in order to get the attention she turns away and avoids eye contact. Unfortunately this seems to make her even more attractive to people and if they then decide to corner her and she can't get away she will snap). But while before her spay she only liked 2 of my friends and me, she has learned to like a lot more people and even my fiancé's kids she adores now, something I would never ever have thought was possible. When we were invited to do dance at Crufts in 2005 and 2008 she was absolutely adorable with people, but I made sure that she would only be stroked when she said she wanted to be and when it all got too much I just took her out of the situation. I must say I was more proud of that than of the fact that she did 2 superb routines.

[Nicola]

Thats really interesting Hetty, it hadnt occured to me for some reason - that spaying could potentially improve a bitch's behaviour as well

[Billymutt]

Sorry, but if I'd have an entire male in the house as well it would be a no-brainer to me: I'd have either one of them done. For my peace of mind I'd probably have the girl spayed, not just to avoid her getting pregnant by the resident boy, but also by any other unneutered male, should she escape one day whilst in season. Just wouldn't want to take the risk. To me, for both sexes, it's like, if you don't want to breed with your dog then why have them deal with all these hormones they can't do anything with?

[LisaBC]

Thanks Billymut but be it a no brainer or not it isnt as easy as that once you know the dog im talking about, she has very bad nerves, fear aggression and also suffers from bad allergies, in the past every time it has been right to do it she has been on steriods anyway so it has been no go even if we wanted to.
She is totally stressed at the vets and needs careful handling by one vet, who is the only person there that can get near her, so its not a straight forwards as 'lets get her done' and I also wanted to do was right for her rather than what is easiest but yes I am thinking the time may be right.

[Nicola]

, in the past every time it has been right to do it she has been on steriods anyway so it has been no go even if we wanted to.
.

Do you reckon those steriods, or the other drugs, affect her behaviour?

(I appreciate that there is no simple answer to Pop's issues, just thinking (writing?) aloud )

[LisaBC]

I wish No she was like this before and I keep her off meds as much as possible, which it working quite well. She has regulary baths, raw diet, new hoover beds washed everyother day, babywipes and we are doing ok, she tends to need steriods for a couple of days every now and again but as they now let me have 50 I can give at the first sign of scratching and stop it before we end up like we did, with no hair and scabs and infection, That way she only needs a very small dose once a day for a few days then every other for a couple of days and its gone for a couple of months.
Stress does bring it on and is the main reason why Ive stopped all the training with other dogs as after this she will scratch her eyes raw within hours, this is the main reason why Ive just accepted she will only ever be happy at home and have left her alone, its sad to see her after a stressful time which can even make her look like she has been on a 5 mile run, she pants lays on her side with her eyes popping out and looks like she will drop dead any minute and I cant do it anymore.
She is happy cuddling Paul in the sofa and going down the fen in the car for a long run in the middle of no where in the evenings. She really is a happy dog and doesnt mind being left home so its not really a problem not to push her anymore.

[Hetty]

, in the past every time it has been right to do it she has been on steriods anyway so it has been no go even if we wanted to.
.

Do you reckon those steriods, or the other drugs, affect her behaviour?

Steroids interfere with wound healing so can not be used during, just before or just after an operation.
Steroids have no known effect of causing aggression, if anything steroids make dogs more dopey as it makes them feel tired....

[LisaBC]

Thanks Hetty, I should have explained why its a no go most of the time.
The only difference in her behaviuor when on steriods is she can become a little food guarding as they make her hungry but as we know this is not her normal behaviour we make sure she has no reason to guard or feel this way.

[janz]

It sounds like Pops has 21st century disease Lisa. You have done your best, but if she is happy I'd let her be too, there are occasional dogs who are homebirds, so long as you manage to give her things to do and get her for a run sometimes youre doing whats best for her so chill and pat yourself on the back

[LisaBC]

It sounds like Pops has 21st century disease Lisa. :

youve sumed her up in one sentance Oh she likes her training in the garden, more so than before, she is all over me if 'The Bag' comes out and she still goes occasionally for a 1.1 agility lesson. She is a super girl, I just wish I could show off how clever she is some times

[Billymutt]

Thanks Billymut but be it a no brainer or not it isnt as easy as that once you know the dog im talking about, she has very bad nerves, fear aggression and also suffers from bad allergies, in the past every time it has been right to do it she has been on steriods anyway so it has been no go even if we wanted to.
She is totally stressed at the vets and needs careful handling by one vet, who is the only person there that can get near her, so its not a straight forwards as 'lets get her done' and I also wanted to do was right for her rather than what is easiest but yes I am thinking the time may be right.

I am sorry that Poppy has so many problems and I'm very glad that she has found such a compassionate and understanding human to share her life with.
I would think though, that with all those problems she wouldn't need the additional stress of having hormones running through her body and having to deal with seasons - which must be stressful too. Even if her season in itself isn't stressful to her, as it's perfectly natural, your male's behaviour and the whole business of keeping them separated for weeks surely has got an impact as well? Spaying would be a one off experience at the vet's, specially if they use soluble stitches on the outside as well.
If it really isn't an option for Poppy, how about getting your boy done? Will at least save you having to deal with his behaviour in the house when Poppy's in season, and outside should there be another female in season being walked or - god forbid! - walking about on her own.

I used to be much in favour of 'leaving dogs naturally', until a dog walker we had at the time told me she thought it was unfair to leave a dog dealing with the stress of their hormones going rampant if they're not allowed to do anything with them anyway? That struck a cord with me, and both for that reason and my total horror at so many "surplus" dogs in this country (and everywhere else, I should add), I've since and always, advocate getting your dogs 'done'.

My girl Kiera is incontinent, possibly due to having been spayed, but she's on 'Hold It!' herbs from CSJ which work a treat! It's not changed my mind about spaying/neutering at all and I will have any dog 'done' who ends up living with me.

[ladybug]

Billymutt....your comments on why you advocate neutering are exactly my feelings! Only you probably said it better than me....as a personal opinion I feel why keep them entire, to deal with all the urges, hormones and other things that come along with it when they are not going to be allowed to do what comes naturally to them. Plus the sheer number of unwanted dogs in the country saddens me beyond belief so I strongly believe people shouldnt be allowed to just breed dogs as freely as they seem to at the moment...I know reputable breeders are different, and they are fine, but you get so many people who own entire dogs who 'fancy having a go' at breeding! But thats a totally different topic!

[LisaBC]

My Boy is only a pup at the moment and I have no intentions of getting him neutered at all unless there is a reason(health or behaviuor) and then it wouldnt be until he is very mature. 2+ as I would like to train him for agility and he would need to fully mature, mentally and physically. I had Boo done at 12months and now regret not waiting longer
All my others except Poppy who hasnt been done for health reasons are done but I wouldnt want to breed from any of these because they are all X's.
Most of the dogs at both my obedience and agility are entire and we have no problems with any of them, none of them go in search of females or behave any different to any other dog, my randiest dog is my 10 year X who has been done for years, he is still very interested in the girls and would love a chance at some action
The incontinence issue is slightly worrying as I feel poppy has enough to deal with without this and to wet her self would really stress her! I had made my mind up to get her done but now I will be reseaching the % of incontinence issues first.

[ladybug]

I kind of feel this has gone slightly off track. I was genuinely asking for advice as to why my boy might not like unneutered males that much, and we now seem to be onto a clearly emotive subject of neutering Vs not neutering. I didnt want to start this topic and I know evryones opinions vary....just wanted advice thats all!

[LisaBC]

I kind of feel this has gone slightly off track. I was genuinely asking for advice as to why my boy might not like unneutered males that much, and we now seem to be onto a clearly emotive subject of neutering Vs not neutering. I didnt want to start this topic and I know evryones opinions vary....just wanted advice thats all!

Yep we have gone off topic, sorry but neutering does bring out mixed opinions and reading through I think there is some points about behaviour changes after neutering it may be that your dog is feeling insecure if what is said about neutering is true (dont know)
I find it very difficult to think it is only entire dogs which are causing the reaction as you have posted that he is very occasionally showing people aggression too! so he is reactive to other things he never use to be too?
My Boo is really good with other dogs but he can be funny with some, he reads them and some he lets me know by a low rumble (no action) then I know to help him by removing him. off the lead he will try to herd other dogs so that can cause problems but I dont allow him to do this and if he shows any sign i remove him and he has to focus back on me on lead which isnt easy as fast moving dogs are far more exciting. Are the dogs he is reacting to more excited than the others/high energy/loud/ noisy breathers all of these can also be a factor. how do know its entire dogs all the time, sorry but I couldnt tell 9/10 dogs that walk past me if the are male or female?

[ladybug]

He has only shown slight aggression to people when he has felt hemmed in/insecure (so when people have crouched in front of him) or when in my halway (which seems to be on the road to recovery now!) so I am aware now I know this on how to ,manage it and make him feel less concerned....and I know it is only entire dogs he is funny with because on the few occasions he has been funny with other dogs I have asked if they are entire...and they have been. Inintially it was with a boxer and a weimeraner and I could see their, um, bits!! Thats what first indicated to me it might be entire dogs....and then from then on after that if he has ever been funny I have asked if the dogs is entire. All other dogs he is fine with.

Anyway, I really appreciate all your comments......I will keep everything in mind and keep an eye on things!

[LisaBC]

Hi again I only said about other factors because he seems to be a little stressed at times such as the wanting to chase cats, which I feel is a little inbult in the collie clan and need training control (mine is a football, any kid with a football is likely to get mugged)
I find it really weird aswell as like today we have spent the whole day at a training day and some dogs such as the JR with bad attitude Boo walked past while it was mouthing off but then a collie came and sat next to me and he really didnt like it? why? I have no idea,maybe protective or jealous I just said nothing personal and moved a couple of seats away until he relaxed again, later we worked in the same group as the collie and he didnt bother at all I havent thought about male/female but I might check it out!